anybody that's covered the debate about healthcare. in order to cover people with preexisting conditions and mandate that, the only way you can do that is mandate that more people have insurance with an individual and employer mandate. that's the whole crux of healthcare is in order to cover, to pay for certain things you've got to broaden the base and include more people. that is the crux of the argument. that's an argument that in politics you want people to make that argument. they have a strong debate about both sides of that why it's a good thing and why it's a bad thing. >> rose: his argument is coming back with any individually mandate at the state level is fine but no individual mandates at the level level. >> one thing you have to give the candidates for there's plenty of substance in this debate, there really was. >> rose: that's what i thought too. >> one thing that mattered and that both sort of failed at was at some point you got to lift up. and so even when they're talking about what's going to be covered and why it's goi